Doug and Matt begin by discussing Brendan Graham Dempsey's work on metamodern spirituality, and particularly metamodern Christianity. Matt highlights the differences between how Eastern and Western spiritual traditions have been adopted and critiqued within this framework, noting that Western Buddhism has been largely stripped of its cultural and cosmological context due to the nature of the modern colonial encounter out of which it arose. He contrasts this with Christianity, which he thinks is more challenging to separate from its cosmological and ritual elements. Matt praises Brendan's efforts to challenge Biblical literalism and explore a version of Christianity that aligns with contemporary scientific understanding. However, Matt expresses feeling somewhat constrained by Brendan's approach, suggesting there are other ways to interpret, for example, the Christ event, that respect scientific perspectives without being reductionistic or literalistic. Doug agrees on the importance of balancing esoteric and exoteric elements in spirituality, using an analogy of understanding a Lamborghini by both driving it and examining its engine. He appreciates Brendan's honest grappling with these spiritual issues but notes the need for incorporating rituals to ground spiritual practice. They both stress the significance of ritual in religious practice, not as mere metaphors but as enactments that transform consciousness. Matt argues that rituals help bridge the gap between our limited, individual perspectives and a more expansive, collective and even cosmic understanding. Doug adds that rituals lay the groundwork for collective human experience and help us connect with the deeper truths of existence. Doug also brings up the challenge of modern political discourse, emphasizing the need for empathy and understanding in political conversations. Matt agrees, suggesting that political engagement should be centered in the heart, aiming for persuasion rather than force. They both acknowledge the difficulty of navigating political polarization in an increasingly “post-liberal” era, but stress the importance of seeing the humanity in others and striving for a more compassionate and inclusive dialogue.