Joel MacMull: Our listeners listening with care may say, these guys can't even get on the same page as to what the appropriate Amazon Terms of Service are necessarily that would apply to the average bear, but I would submit to you that in of itself is demonstrative of the larger issue of just how complex and how utterly unconscionable, and frankly idiotic, these various agreements are.

I like to think of myself as at least an average lawyer.

In looking at a document entitled AWS Service Terms that was last updated on May 3rd, 2023, which is, I read it, is intended to apply to both, among other things, Amazon resellers as well as, what I will call purchasers like you and I as consumer purchasers. It is a document that I have my assistant print out that's gotta be at least 50 pages in length.

Mark Miller: Well you're lucky. You're lucky it's only 50 pages.

Joel MacMull: It's not numbered. I mean it's not numbered. And of course, that's by design.

Mark Miller: I have to say though, Joel, this is the reason you and I started this show. We've been playing with other ones for the last six episodes. But this one goes to the heart of what the major complaint is.

Joel MacMull: ...and I think you're absolutely right. When I wanted to take a look at the Amazon terms of service, I was interested, and admittedly naive, in thinking about what it would entail.

When someone says Amazon to me, they are the world's largest online retailer, and I foolishly think that's the entirety of the scope of their services.

But back to this agreement, which I'm referencing, which contains, by the way, no more than 96 subsections, okay? 96 subsections. I forgot that the breadth of Amazon's touch these days is far broader than just online. It's infinite. And what makes this I think so silly is that there are parts of this agreement and offshoots when I dug in a little bit to the hyperlinks that I don't even understand what they're talking about.