On the Creative Moment podcast this week I'm talking to Mark Runacus MBE.

Mark is the co-founder of creative agency Wax/On and the joint chief executive of Outvertising, which is a volunteer-run UK-based network of LGBTQ+ people working in the creative industries.

Mark talks about role models past and present, discrimination in the workplace and his history at Karmarama.

Here’s what I asked Mark:

One of the key elements of your work with Outvertising is to try and create role models for the LGBTQ+ community and one of the ways that you are trying to do this is to increase the diversity of people appearing in adverts. Just talk me through why role models in this context are so important?

So when was the first advert that featured a gay man?

It's got to the slightly embarrassing stage where there tends to be a token non-white person in lots of adverts, hasn't it? We really should be a bit beyond that now.

When we spoke before you quoted some research that said that half of 18 to 24 year-olds don't identify as 100% straight. Society is changing rapidly, isn't it?

That has some big implications for the creative marketing sector, doesn't it?

What role do you think advertising needs to play in that societal change?

Talk to me about Outvertising's mentor scheme and how people can get involved with it?

What are the stats on LGBTQ+ people experiencing discrimination in the workplace?

Moving on from that to your time at Karmarama, you were chief strategy officer there when it was bought by Accenture. What was your experience of working as a creative person for a management consultancy business?

When we chatted before you said that "creatives forgot about the importance of the channel about 25 years ago", what did you mean by that?

Why is it that you've decided to focus primarily on scale-up businesses at Wax On?

Jon talks us through how The Liberty Guild works in contrast to the traditional agency model.

He explains that it is built around talent; an association of craftspeople working towards a mutual goal. No buildings - it’s simply and easily scalable delivering a global alternative to the standard agency model.

Jon explains how and why they charge a flat fee for a product, the result of that product being an idea. Jon believes that charging by the hour is not the right way to go, he charges for an idea.

How long does it take to make an idea? You can’t answer that! Clients are now wise to agencies loading hours and people into jobs.

The cost to create the idea is the same, regardless of the client - however big or small.

The Guild doesn’t work on tiers in terms of the service you get - it will always be the best as the Guild works with world-class talent. They get paid well, work faster and the client pays a fair price.

Jon talks through the different products the Guild offers.

The Liberty Guild can be whatever shape the client wants them to be - ideas only or ideas and activation.It is different every time for each client depending on where they are at with their brand and what they need but they are flexible.

Jon discusses the longevity of ideas which has been discussed for a long time within the creative industry. Who owns ideas?

Jon feels it is pointless for the client to own the ideas. The Guild works by holding the IP for ideas until the client buys an idea. The other ideas remain the property of the person who created them.

Jon explains why a model akin to music licensing might be the way to go when it comes to ownership of ideas. He is scaling the business so this is something he is looking at but not top of the list right now!

Jon talks over how the creative process has worked as a virtual model. The Liberty Guild is currently 100% virtual. He says that those moments of spontaneity are not real. They don’t happen in a corridor or over a cup of tea. He says it comes from hard work; blood, sweat and tears. He feels that to work on your own terms in your own environment breeds success.

Jon has looked at the science of creative excellence. He’s studied the successful working practices of companies like Klarna and Spotify and other technical giants and has worked out this is the best, most effective, most successful way of working; how to get the most out of people.

Jon explains how the Guild works and how it is designed to deliver optimal performance. It isn’t a big team. It’s about multiple small teams. The wonder of a spontaneous creative environment is a myth.

Despite The Guild being 100% virtual, Jon is sold on the need for an environment. He takes Salesforce as an example who have walked out of their huge offices and how this represents a fundamental shift in how we work. We need human contact but we don’t need 20 floors of desks.

Jon talks over where it goes from here? But doesn’t believe this will mean a brain drain. The broadband infrastructure means we can work to exercise our minds from anywhere in the world.

Jon talks over the meaning behind freelance. He gives a history lesson on where the term came from!

It is a brilliant way to be and how to work on your terms that creates your best work. The Liberty Guild is about freedom and how it is a better way to work for the creative industry and clients too.

This week, our guest on the 'Creative Legends' podcast is Mike Mathieson, CEO and founder of brand entertainment agency Cake.

Building Cake into a legendary and award-winning creative agency.

Mike started out working with bands as a record plugger and expanding into PR for music festivals where I met brands and realised it was a better outlet for creativity and the bottom line. Along with Mark Whelan and Ben Jones he founded Cake and Brand Entertainment was born. Joined by Adrian Pettett he built the agency working with global brands in PR, Experiential, Social Media and content creation.

In 2008 Cake was acquired by Havas and in 2009 a second Cake office was launched in New York. The business continued to build and in 2012 was heavily involved in high-profile campaigns for Coca-Cola, British Airways, and Eurostar at the London Olympics.

Mike and Graham talk about:

3.05 Mike's beginning in the music industry as a plugger and the story behind his first-ever business call.

5.11 Mike talks about his move to Virgin Records and what he learned working with Janet Jackson, Soul2Soul, Cutting Crew and Paula Abdul.

6.01 How Mike took an unconventional path to working in PR and the creative tactics getting the bands noticed.

7.30 Mike recounts stories of stunts that worked including the Power of Love and a vibrator.

8.26 How Richard Branson was the master of the stunts including abseiling down a newly opening store

9.38 Where the name Cake came from

10.20 When Mike left Virgin and started FFI - For Further Information and its alternative name known to pluggers

11.20 When Mike decided to start out on his own

12.27 How Mike started working on music festivals and learning about the process, sponsors and the importance of the brands

13.27 Mike's eureka moment!

14.02 Met Mark Whelan and Ben Jones and was working with Jim Dowling, and decided to set up Cake in 1999 all about youth culture and marketing

15.37 Brand entertainment was born! The more entertaining the sale of a product, the more successful it would be.

16.07 Mike talks about 'creativity rooted in truth', translating to the notion of 'transparency' today

17.20 Mike talks about Orange and it's creative. GLASTONBURY / TENT / LOST.