Humans have a primal instinct to find their identity in the group. The group tells us what to believe and how to behave. This is literally the heart of how religion operates. So what happens when a culture becomes secular? The religious impulse doesn’t go away. New group identities battle each other for dominance of the greater culture.

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The Matrix has you - systems of control animated by ideological forces. You feel their presence telling you how to think, what you can say and what you should do. And if you don’t measure up, it will cancel you. In this part two of a conversation about the cross, Mark and Paul discover a message that stands against the systems that seek to define and dominate our lives.

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In this episode, Paul presents an alternative view of the cross and challenges the idea that the Father unleashed his wrath on Christ as a punishment for sin. Mark makes a case that payment is a function of how the world works and that "the wrath of God” is a real experience for many people. This episode is part one in a series of conversations about the crucifixion.

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