Imagine being just weeks away from your wedding and finding out through a third party that you've been fired from your church. This is exactly what happened to Wes Gay.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, host Matt Davis and guest Wes Gay dive into the difficult transitions from church ministry to marketplace success.

Together, they explore what it means to be forced out of a role you thought defined you, and how to build a thriving career outside the church while using the same skills honed in ministry.

1. Unlearning Church Culture: Transitioning from ministry to the marketplace often requires unlearning assumptions about money, leadership, and success.
2. Transferable Skills: Skills developed in ministry - like empathy, communication, and leadership - are highly valuable in other sectors, including sales and business development.
3. Navigating Identity Crisis: Being a pastor may feel like your entire identity, but it’s an assignment, not who you are at the core.
4. Financial Freedom Is Not Shameful: Christians need to rethink the role of money in their lives. Financial success can be a tool for greater impact and service to others.
5. Practical Transition Advice: Start building a portfolio or exploring new opportunities before a crisis forces you into change.

1. "You are not your job title, and leaving ministry doesn’t mean you stop doing ministry."
2. "The skills you develop in ministry - leading, teaching, and caring for people - are incredibly valuable in the business world."
3. "For Christians, making more money isn’t evil - it’s a tool that can create more opportunities for impact."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Wes Gay and recounts their first meeting during Matt’s early StoryBrand journey.
• [02:52] Fired From Ministry – Wes shares his story of being unexpectedly fired just weeks before his wedding.
• [06:18] Repeated Job Loss – Wes explains the pattern of being let go from multiple ministry roles and its emotional toll.
• [08:26] Deciding to Leave Ministry – Wes describes his turning point in deciding not to return to ministry, despite applying for numerous church roles.
• [11:36] Unlearning Ministry Culture – Wes shares what he had to unlearn from church culture to succeed in the marketplace, including assumptions about money and leadership.
• [14:25] Identity, Assignment, Calling – Matt and Wes discuss the framework of identity, assignment, and calling, and how to navigate transitions with these in mind.
• [17:17] How Ministry Prepared Wes for Business – Wes discusses how his experience in ministry helped him transition into StoryBrand and the marketplace.
• [21:54] Transferable Skills – Matt and Wes explore the transferable skills pastors can bring into the marketplace, including communication and empathy.
• [24:58] Christians and Financial Success – A discussion on why financial success is not something Christians should feel guilty about.
• [28:07] Using Pastoral Skills in the Marketplace – Wes reflects on how his pastoral skills continue to influence his business relationships and how they’re still a form of ministry.
• [31:45] How to Communicate Clearly as a Church – Wes provides practical advice for churches on dropping the jargon and communicating clearly with their congregation.
• [37:40] Closing and Contact Info – Wes shares how listeners can connect with him for marketing advice or transition coaching.

Imagine standing at the pulpit after your last sermon, knowing it's not just the end of a service, but the end of your ministry journey at that church. What happens next?

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Matt McGee, founder of The Last Service Podcast, to explore the difficult transitions pastors face when they step away from ministry. Whether it's through burnout, church closure, or simply moving into a new season, Matt McGee has seen firsthand the emotional toll and the challenges that follow.

This episode tackles the question, "Is there life after ministry?" with a powerful reminder that ministry doesn’t end with a job title.

1. You Are Not a Failure: Leaving ministry - whether through a church closure or a transition—does not define your worth or calling.
2. Find Community After Ministry: Pastors must actively seek support, guidance, and pastoral care when leaving ministry to avoid isolation and burnout.
3. Reshaping Ministry: Ministry is not confined to church walls; it can happen anywhere - whether teaching in a school or simply being present for someone in need.
4. The Pain of Transition: Both pastors and their families carry deep emotional scars during church transitions, but acknowledging and processing these feelings is key to healing.
5. Proactive Pastoral Care: Churches should plan for pastoral transitions with intentionality, bringing in help and creating space for joy and healing, rather than letting the process turn solely into a business decision.

1. "You're not a failure. Mistakes happen, but they don’t define the Spirit of God or your calling."
2. "We are believers in resurrection, and just like death brings new life, leaving ministry can lead to new beginnings."
3. "Ministry isn't about the pulpit - it’s about being a godly influence wherever you are, whether that’s teaching at a school or working at Burger King."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Matt McGee and the conversation begins with ministry transitions.
• [00:50] Early Ministry Calling – Matt McGee shares his journey into ministry and how God led him to serve in the church.
• [06:18] Transitioning Out – Matt McGee describes the internal and external factors that led to his departure from church ministry.
• [11:23] The Breaking Point – A difficult leadership dynamic and unaligned values lead Matt to a crucial conversation with his pastor.
• [14:59] Aftermath of Leaving Ministry – Matt shares the emotional and practical challenges his family faced after his sudden departure.
• [19:16] Community Support Post-Ministry – How Matt's church community responded after he left, and the importance of maintaining healthy relationships.
• [21:30] Returning to Teaching as Ministry – Matt’s journey back into education, this time with a renewed sense of calling and mission.
• [25:29] Redefining Ministry – How stepping outside church walls changed Matt's perspective on ministry and service.
• [29:56] Last Service Podcast – The inspiration behind Matt McGee’s Last Service Podcast, which explores church closures and transitions.
• [33:42] The Importance of Pastoral Care in Transitions – How church leaders can approach closures with care and attention to the emotional needs of their congregation.
• [36:58] Encouragement for Pastors in Transition – Matt offers words of wisdom for pastors facing their final service, reminding them they are not failures.
• [42:06] Conclusion – Matt McGee shares where listeners can find The Last Service Podcast and other resources.

What happens when you step away from the calling you’ve always known and venture into the unknown?

Jordan Whilden found himself at that crossroads, leaving behind nearly a decade of church ministry for an uncertain future in the marketplace.

But this episode of Life After Ministry is not just about leaving; it’s about rediscovering purpose, redefining ministry, and understanding that God's calling often transcends job titles.

Jordan's journey from pastor to CEO of Ministry Hub reveals how stepping away from a church role doesn’t mean stepping away from serving the Kingdom.

In this episode, Matt Davis talks with Jordan about the anxiety that comes with such a leap, the lessons learned, and how God continued to use his gifts in new, impactful ways.

For anyone wrestling with the question, "Is there life after ministry?" - Jordan’s story offers hope, clarity, and insight.

1. Transitioning Well: When stepping out of vocational ministry, it’s essential to take time for self-reflection and healing before jumping into the next chapter.
2. A New Kind of Ministry: Jordan’s experience shows that leaving church staff doesn’t mean leaving ministry. There are ways to serve the Kingdom that may have even broader impacts.
3. A Pastor’s Heart, Reimagined: Even when Jordan stepped into the marketplace, he carried the heart of a pastor, finding new ways to shepherd leaders through Ministry Hub.
4. Building Clarity: It’s crucial to understand your strengths, desires, and God’s calling before leaping into a new career - clarity leads to thriving.
5. Supporting Transitions: Ministry Hub focuses on helping pastors and churches navigate transitions effectively, recognizing the unique needs of both sides in today’s job market.

1. "As soon as I stepped into the marketplace, there was a breath of fresh air - freedom I didn’t realize I needed."
2. "Just because you leave the church doesn’t mean you leave ministry; I found a way to invest more in the Kingdom in a broader way."
3. "The goal is to land in a place where you thrive - where you can be the most fruitful in your calling."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jordan Whilden, founder and CEO of Ministry Hub.
• [00:10] Early Ministry Career – Jordan discusses his calling into ministry, starting as a high school pastor and moving into discipleship roles.
• [01:59] Decision to Leave Church Ministry – Jordan explains the factors that led him to leave his pastoral role, including burnout and church culture changes.
• [04:02] The Fear of Transition – The emotional and practical challenges of leaving ministry, and how Jordan navigated his “day zero” in stepping away from vocational church work.
• [05:14] Life After Ministry – Jordan reflects on his first Sunday post-ministry and the process of finding a new church home.
• [08:13] The Birth of Ministry Hub – How Jordan’s passion for connecting people and creating systems led to the development of Ministry Hub.
• [11:54] Serving Pastors in Transition – Jordan shares insights on what pastors look for when transitioning out of ministry, and how Ministry Hub supports them.
• [13:42] Serving Churches in Transition – Ministry Hub’s innovative approach to helping churches find new leaders through scalable, flexible staffing solutions.
• [17:26] Encouragement for Leaders in Transition – Jordan gives practical advice to pastors in transition, from crafting clear resumes to knowing their personal calling.
• [20:56] Redefining Ministry Beyond the Church – How Jordan sees his current work with Ministry Hub as a broader way to serve the church and the Kingdom.
• [23:45] How to Connect with Ministry Hub – Jordan shares how pastors and churches can connect with Ministry Hub for help in transitions and staffing.

Learn more about the great work Jeremy Stalnecker is doing through the Mighty Oaks Foundation by going to: https://www.mightyoaksprograms.org/

Imagine coming home from leading Marines on the battlefield in Iraq, only to feel lost and frustrated while trying to get church volunteers to clean a bathroom.

The intensity and mission-driven focus of war collide with the quieter challenges of ministry life in ways that can lead to emotional turmoil.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Jeremy Stalnecker, a former Marine officer turned pastor, to discuss how transitioning out of the military and into ministry nearly destroyed him.

Jeremy shares how misaligned expectations, hidden trauma, and identity loss can derail even the most driven leaders - and how a balance of grace, truth, and time helped him navigate those life-altering transitions. Together, they explore how to rediscover purpose, even when life feels like it's falling apart.

1. Identity Shift: Transitioning from military life to ministry was overwhelming for Jeremy, revealing how tied his identity was to his role in the Marines.
2. Lack of Intensity in Church Ministry: The shift from the high-stakes environment of the military to the slower pace of church life left Jeremy feeling frustrated and disconnected from the mission.
3. The Power of Honest Confrontation: A pivotal moment came when Jeremy's pastor confronted him about his behavior, helping him realize that the problem started within, not with external circumstances.
4. Seeking Guidance: Transition requires mentorship and guidance from those who’ve walked the path before - a crucial element Jeremy wished he had during his shift from the Marines to ministry.
5. Ministry Beyond the Church Walls: Jeremy's work with Mighty Oaks Foundation demonstrates how ministry can thrive outside the church setting, helping veterans and first responders find healing through faith.

1. "Everything I had ever wanted to be a part of, I had done - and then I was leading church staff meetings, trying to wrangle volunteers. It was a whole different world."
2. "The reasons for your behavior may be valid, but they’re not excuses. You can’t justify the way you're acting, no matter what you’ve been through."
3. "Your calling may change locations, but the gifts God gives you are without repentance - they’ll follow you wherever you go."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jeremy Stalnecker, discussing the transitions from military service to ministry.
• [00:15] Military Service and the Iraq War – Jeremy recounts his time as a Marine officer and his experience during Operation Iraqi Freedom.
• [02:15] Transition from the Marines to Ministry – Jeremy describes the challenge of shifting from combat to church staff life, feeling out of place and frustrated.
• [06:46] The Struggle in Ministry – The tension between military urgency and church work led to anger and personal turmoil, both at home and in church staff meetings.
• [09:55] Confrontation with the Pastor – Jeremy's pastor confronts him about his behavior, offering both support and a challenge to change.
• [12:15] Turning Point – A key turning point where Jeremy takes time off to reflect and begins to recognize the internal issues driving his actions.
• [14:27] Becoming a Senior Pastor – Jeremy transitions into a senior pastor role, facing new challenges and personal growth in the process.
• [15:55] Moving from Senior Pastor to Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy shares how he transitioned into his current role at Mighty Oaks, blending his military and ministry backgrounds.
• [18:34] Navigating a Smooth Transition – Practical advice on how Jeremy managed his transition out of pastoral ministry into nonprofit leadership.
• [21:22] Ministry in Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy explains how Mighty Oaks helps veterans and first responders heal through faith and how his pastoral skills apply in his current role.
• [24:49] Pastoring Beyond the Church – Discussing the concept of pastoring as a role, not just a title, and how Jeremy continues to pastor in a different capacity.
• [28:40] How to Connect with Mighty Oaks – Jeremy shares where to find more information on Mighty Oaks and how to get involved or refer someone in need of help.

Imagine achieving what seems like ministry success on the outside - leading a growing church, serving a vibrant congregation - while internally battling crippling anxiety, sleepless nights, and the haunting thought of leaving it all behind.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with John Opalewski of Converge Coaching to explore how ministry leaders can hit their breaking point despite outward success.

John shares his personal journey of going from thriving youth pastor to suicidal depression as a senior pastor, and the hard-won lessons about self-care, boundaries, and the crucial role of mental health in ministry. Together, they tackle the question: how can pastors prevent burnout and find lasting fulfillment in both ministry and life?

1. Workaholism and Neglect: Many pastors fall into the trap of overworking, neglecting their personal health, friendships, and boundaries, which often leads to burnout and depression.
2. The Power of Honest Conversations: Addressing difficult emotions like anger and setting clear boundaries in ministry are vital for long-term emotional and mental health.
3. Support from the Church Board: While a pastor’s well-being is their own responsibility, church boards can support this by providing resources like counseling and coaching.
4. Depression Doesn't Define You: Depression isn't the end of your story. There are paths to recovery, healing, and a healthier way to live and serve in ministry.
5. There is Life After Ministry: Ministry may take new forms, but the pastoral calling can continue beyond the pulpit, even in marketplace roles or other creative avenues.

1. "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus - it comes from chasing people or ideas that never seem to come to fruition."
2. "Depression is not the final chapter in your story. There’s a way out, and it starts with finding a safe place to share."
3. "Your calling follows you wherever you go. It may look different, but it never leaves you."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt welcomes John Opalewski to discuss his ministry journey and transition.
• [00:33] Early Calling into Ministry – John shares how he found his call to ministry through discipleship.
• [02:44] Entry into Pastoral Ministry – John describes his path to becoming a lead pastor and how it lacked preparation for the emotional challenges.
• [05:40] Challenges as a Lead Pastor – The immense pressure of being a senior pastor at 29, with a lack of boundaries and emotional maturity.
• [06:31] The Impact of Anger and Boundaries – How John's inability to manage anger and set boundaries led to emotional damage.
• [11:43] Role of the Elder Board in Supporting Pastors – John reflects on how boards can create space for preventive care for pastors’ mental health.
• [14:28] John's Breakdown – John recounts the moment he fell into suicidal depression, despite outward success in ministry.
• [19:38] Deciding to Leave Ministry – After two years of recovery, John decides to step down as lead pastor.
• [21:47] Transitioning into the Marketplace – John's surprising peace after leaving ministry and entering the corporate world.
• [24:21] Being Called Pastor After Stepping Down – John shares his mixed emotions when people continued to address him as “pastor” after he left.
• [25:45] Founding Converge Coaching – How John’s transition led to starting Converge Coaching to help pastors prevent burnout and stay healthy.
• [28:47] The Growing Need for Pastoral Care – John highlights the staggering burnout rates among pastors and the importance of coaching and support.
• [31:57] Words of Encouragement – John speaks directly to pastors facing burnout or depression, offering hope and guidance.
• [34:35] How to Connect with Converge Coaching – John explains the simple on-ramp to getting help through Converge Coaching.
• [35:59] Is There Life After Ministry? – John reassures listeners that ministry doesn't end after stepping away from the pulpit—your calling continues in new forms.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/

What if you dedicated decades of your life to ministry only to discover the role you've been striving to fulfill doesn't align with your true calling?

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt sits down with David Robinson, a seasoned pastor who faced the painful realization that his gifting was not what people had expected of him.

Together, they tackle the disappointment of unfulfilled expectations in ministry, the challenges pastors face when their role doesn’t fit their calling, and the key to finding clarity and purpose in leadership.

How can churches avoid burnout, embrace better hiring processes, and ensure that their pastors are operating within their true gifts?

This episode dives deep into what it takes to build effective ministry teams and how to lead a church while avoiding common pitfalls.

1. Clarity Prevents Confrontation: Many conflicts arise from unclear expectations in leadership roles; upfront clarity in job descriptions and performance agreements is essential.
2. Gifting vs. Role Expectations: Churches often expect pastors to fulfill multiple roles, but each leader needs to operate within their God-given spiritual gift.
3. The Importance of Building a Team: An apostolic leader must focus on building a balanced team of other gifts - shepherds, teachers, evangelists, and prophets - instead of trying to do it all themselves.
4. Relational Equity Matters: The strength of a church’s leadership is often determined by the relationships built outside formal meetings - trust grows from investing in personal connections.
5. Burnout Doesn't Come From Chasing Jesus: Burnout in ministry occurs when leaders chase after people or tasks outside of their gifts, not from pursuing their true calling.

1. "Confrontation is the flip side of clarity. If you're not clear upfront, confrontation is inevitable."
2. "God told me, 'I never called you to be a pastor.' It wasn't the shepherding gift He gave me, but another that was needed in the places He sent me."
3. "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus; it comes from chasing people and tasks that don't align with your gift."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce David Robinson and the theme of unfulfilled expectations in ministry.
• [00:41] Unfulfilled Expectations in Leadership – David explains how lack of clarity in roles leads to disappointment and confrontation.
• [02:00] Five Key Areas of Clarity in Hiring – Spiritual gifting, temperament, clear job description, and performance agreements are necessary for successful leadership.
• [04:32] Frustration in Ministry – David shares his 40-year experience in ministry and the internal struggle of being called a "pastor" without having a shepherding gift.
• [07:50] The Role of Apostolic Leadership – A discussion on the difference between an apostolic gifting and the expectations placed on pastors.
• [12:44] Elders’ Role in Supporting Leadership – How elders hold pastors accountable and build trust through relational equity.
• [15:12] Tension Between Ministry and Corporate Approaches – Addressing the disconnect between ministry-focused staff and marketplace-minded elders.
• [18:08] Managing Transitions and Letting Go – How to approach pastoral transitions with grace and maintain emotional maturity during difficult conversations.
• [19:49] Vision vs. Management in Ministry – The importance of maintaining a compelling vision to prevent ministry from devolving into mere management.
• [21:59] Addressing Burnout in Ministry – How burnout happens when leaders pursue tasks outside their gifting and how to create balance.
• [26:27] Life After Ministry – David discusses the possibility of life after vocational ministry and how to embrace a new calling outside the church.

Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/

Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/

Learn more about the great work Kathey Batey is doing at Divorce Support Anonymous by going to: https://divorcesupportanonymous.com/

Episode Summary

Imagine walking into your church with a heart heavy from a broken marriage, unsure how your faith community will respond. The weight of shame, guilt, and fear can feel unbearable.

This episode of Life After Ministry dives into the often unspoken struggles of divorce, especially for those in ministry.

Divorce doesn't just impact a marriage, it shakes personal faith, family, and even one’s calling.

Matt and Marilee Davis sit down with Kathy Batey, a divorce support expert, to explore the stigma of divorce in Christian circles, the unique pain pastors face when marriages fall apart, and how the church can better respond with love and grace instead of judgment.

This episode sheds light on the real experiences of people struggling with the collapse of their marriage and how to heal and hope again.

1. The Church’s Response to Divorce: Instead of casting stones, churches need to approach divorce with compassion, understanding that healing requires support, not judgment.
2. The Unique Pressure on Pastors: Pastors face additional layers of shame and complexity when dealing with divorce because of their public role in the faith community.
3. God Hates Violence, Not Just Divorce: The often-quoted scripture about God hating divorce is often misapplied, as the heart of the issue is God's disdain for violence and broken relationships, not merely the legal separation.
4. Hope After Divorce: Even after the pain of divorce, there is life, restoration, and potential for new purpose if individuals are intentional about healing.
5. The Importance of Support Systems: Support groups, whether faith-based or community-oriented, are critical for healing and processing the trauma of divorce.

1. "Divorce causes damage, but God cares more about the individual than the institution of marriage."
2. "You have a broken soul in front of you. How you treat this broken soul matters."
3. "God has not divorced you. He still has a beautiful plan for your life."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce the topic of divorce in ministry.
• [01:05] Kathy Batey’s Journey – Kathy shares her personal experience with divorce and how it led her to support others.
• [02:56] The Stigma of Divorce in the Church – Exploring the shame and fear Christians feel around divorce.
• [05:01] Pastors and Divorce – The additional challenges pastors face when their marriages break down.
• [06:36] Misinterpretations of Malachi 2:16 – Kathy explains how the Bible's verse about God hating divorce is often misused.
• [10:28] Helping Pastors Struggling in Their Marriage – Kathy offers advice for ministry leaders facing marital challenges.
• [14:50] Church Leaders’ Role in Supporting Divorcing Pastors – Practical steps church boards can take to support pastors going through divorce.
• [18:35] Redemption After Divorce – A story of how one pastor was more impactful post-divorce.
• [20:37] Life After Divorce – The importance of healing and finding hope after a marriage ends.
• [25:50] Final Thoughts – Kathy encourages individuals going through divorce, reminding them of God's plan for their lives.

Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/

Learn more about the great work Kathey Batey is doing at Divorce Support Anonymous by going to: https://divorcesupportanonymous.com/

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Chris Adams, Executive Director of Flourishing in Ministry, takes us deep into the heart of one of the biggest challenges pastors face today—burnout. With pastors feeling pulled in every direction, post-pandemic pressures, political polarization, and toxic church dynamics, how can they stay healthy and truly flourish? Chris shares his own background as a third-generation pastor and how he was inspired to care for those serving in ministry, especially after witnessing his grandfather's ministry burnout. Together, we unpack the emotional weight pastors carry and how Chris's work is helping pastors find real, tangible ways to prevent burnout, restore balance, and thrive, even when their ministries are struggling.

1. "You can be so right, you're wrong. There’s a lot of that happening today."

2. "Burnout sneaks up on pastors. By the time they realize it, the damage is done."

3. "Pastors need to play. A little bit of fun, even 20-30 minutes a week, can make a huge difference."

• Burnout sneaks up: Most pastors are unaware they’re burning out until it reaches a critical level. Early warning signs must be recognized.

• Self-regulation is essential: Pastors are constantly exposed to toxic behavior and emotional stress. They need skills to process and release those burdens.

• Playtime is necessary: Even a small amount of leisure time can rejuvenate mental and physical health and contribute to long-term well-being.

• Daily rhythms matter: Pastors should practice simple daily wellness routines, like a 5-minute pause or a 15-minute walk, to maintain resilience.

• Flourishing despite hardship: A pastor’s ministry doesn’t need to be thriving for them to personally flourish; redefining success can lead to true fulfillment.

00:00 - Introduction and Chris's Ministry Background 02:30 - The "Clergy-Killing" Churches and Why Chris Stayed in Ministry 04:50 - The Current Health of Clergy in America 07:15 - Navigating Polarization and Flourishing Amidst Conflict 10:00 - The Daily Well-being of Pastors 12:30 - Importance of Contemplative Practices and Play 16:30 - Flourishing in Ministry Even When Ministry Isn’t Flourishing 19:40 - The Research Behind Burnout in Ministry 22:30 - Indicators of When to Consider Stepping Away from Ministry 26:20 - How Flourishing in Ministry is Helping Pastors